Sunday, May 25, 2014

Another controversy over Tromso Olympiad selection

My previous post on the subject of selection. Read Sumant's open letter here.

Summary of the events leading up to this. Three players were qualified for the team, Ng Tze Han , Yeoh Li Tian and Aron Teh by virtual of finishing in the top three in the Malaysian Masters. A further four players, IM Lim Yee Weng, Fadzil, Sumant and Fong Yit San competed in another selection to pick the remaining two places. The qualifiers from this second selection were IM Lim Yee Weng and Fong Yit San.

The latest is that one of the qualifiers have opted not to play in the olympiad. MCF then hand picked Fadzil as the replacement without a playoff with Sumant who submitted an open letter pleading for a play-off.

MCF already indicated (from previous decisions and actions), that there will be no more hand-picking of an individual into the team and everyone has to qualify in some manner. Both Fadzil and Sumant tied in the second selection, so there should be a playoff.

Note: An source told me that when there was a tie between the two in the second selection, a playoff was to be scheduled but Fadzil refused to agree to a date. And now he is automatically in the team based on a letter he wrote?

Personally, I think this is bullshit and the whole thing stinks.

83 comments:

Anonymous said...

Someone got in through backdoor again.

Anonymous said...

Sumant plays under which Chess Association? Did he play for this association in the National Closed? If yes, then this association also has the moral responsibility to bring his case up to MCF since Sumant was representing that State to go to the Nationals and finally to the Malaysian Masters

Anonymous said...

It seems that Sumant represented CAS in the National Closed 2014 before gaining entry into the Malaysian Masters. So I think Sumant should appeal to the CAS President to take up his case to MCF.

Peter Long said...

Sumant plays for Selangor. The Chief Arbiter for the MCF Selections is Lim Tse Pin who is also the Hon Secretary of the Chess Association of Selangor. So easy for Sumant to sort this out?

Peter Long said...

Now that I have read Sumant's posts, seems that end of the day Tengku is explaining that it was decision by vote of the MCF Council at their meeting, which can apparently overrule any earlier communications by an MCF Sub-Committee. It would be very strange unless as as stated, whatever was said earlier was not endorsed!

Peter Long said...

I actually have another perspective, notwithstanding and independent of this case, but perhaps something to be considered in the future. All this has come about because a player who originally qualified withdrew. Arguably then neither of the two players eliminated in the four player selection have real rights to be in the team as neither actually qualified in the original system (you could even argue the second selection was also rather ad-hoc but seems to have been endorsed and had agreement of all parties, even if rather strange to me the losers plus others who opted out earlier get a second chance). So my proposal is that as is the practice in most places, have strict criteria for one qualification tournament for four and have a wild card for one more. If more members drop out then either organise a selection of the best of the rest who did not opt out earlier (whatever mix) or have another wild card. Not perfect but not controversial.

Anonymous said...

Wildcard is always controversial. Example Lin Dan winning last year's World Championships on a wildcard. Trying telling it to LCW that it is isn't controversial.

Anonymous said...

Why did Fadzil refuse to playoff? Because he was promised a backdoor. MCF people only good playing politics.

Peter Long said...

Wild card is not controversial if announced up front and enough places on merit. The assumption is MCF will be able to make a case for which ever wild card. It can be used if say we have a clear No. 1 sick to play qualifier, or fourth place won over fifth on tie-break so let both in, etc. Even if Badminton is not an idea, Lin Dan getting in is hardly controversial as defending champion and still one of the top two in the world and he even proved it by winning.

Peter Long said...

I also think that if one wishes to make accusations, then use your name and stand by what you say. Not saying you don't know something we don't but not fair to attack Fadzil like this.

Jimmy Liew said...

It seem that there is supporters of fadzil in mcf. Otherwise how he know to write in and at the right time just before mcf meets. Not many people outside of the mcf will known when they meet.
Nothing wrong with this of course. Only thing is sumant is short changed. If you read correctly, fadzil given the spot because he EXPRESSED interest. No other reason.

Anonymous said...

Jimmy, I think it isn't correct to say Fadzil was given the spot because he expressed interest. The email by Tengku apparently says that all decisions/interpretations made by all other persons previously are not correct. The only thing that is correct is the decision taken by the Exco to award the place to Fadzil based on his (4th placing) during the Malaysian Masters 2014 selection.

Anonymous said...

By the way, who bailed out from the team? And why?

Jimmy Liew said...

Most likely person is Ng Tze Han as he already told me after Masters he might not be able to go.

Anonymous said...

I think it is very unfair for NTH (assumed) to play in an Olympic selection and then decline to go as all along he is assumed to be willing to take his place in the team. Unless it was due to unforeseen circumstances, no excuse as it ruined other peoples' chances. It was a selection tournament and someone mentioned he travelled all the way from Penang to play his games. For what, I wonder?

Jimmy Liew said...

I m sure tze Han does want to go. Just that having a regular job is not easy to take leave. Think about it. You have to be sure if your place and then you apply leave for that period. Then your company rejects it coz the period is two long. Playing Olympiad requires around twenty days of company leave.

Anonymous said...

The life of an amateur sportsman is not easy. As in all other sports except the very few elite sports. I can understand if it is a tournament and selection is part of the process. But a pure selection event and the qualifier says he can't go. There is no logic.

Anonymous said...

Fadzil was placed 4th , ahead of Yit San in the selection tournament.
Yit San and Yee Weng went thru via the impromptu selection.

On Basis of the 4th placing, he deserves the selection.

Anonymous said...

Ng tze han already knew he cant play for olympiad,but still want to play for selection.haha.so funny man.regarding yee weng,who is he?VVVVVVip player?haha.Can't came for Malaysian Masters and someone arrange scheduled for yee weng to play for playoff???haha.very funny.and to SUMANT..look at your result in Malaysian Masters looo..at the bottom place..nonsense guy..if you are good player,you are already qualified looooo...go back home and prepare for next olympiad ok?haha..don't be to sad..no angry..no need to bla bla bla too much..wasting your time..

Anonymous said...

Agreed. Granted that there is controversy over the selections, but Sumant should take heed that this wasn't his place to begin with. So he should just take it in his stride and prepare better the next time and earn his place on merit on a more clear cut basis. But having said that, I believe it was not so much of the place at stake, but how everyone seems to have their own interpretation of the criteria selection so much so that even the Chairman of the Selection committee also seems to have gotten it wrong as to why Fadzil was finally selected.

Jimmy Liew said...

Lets be clear on this. Sumant did not ask for the place. He is requesting a proper play off, which is logical. Fadzil does not deserve to be given the place directly as he failed TWICE (as did Sumant)

Anonymous said...

Yes twice..but if u looked and compare FADZIL and sumant results in Malaysian Masters..you will know who deserve for that spot JIMMY..don't be so tricky looo..

Jimmy Liew said...

I can feel that there is more than meets the eye, concerning Fadzil's directly picked into the team. All I am saying is Sumant tied with Fadzil in the second selection and so both deserves the chance.

Whatever happened in the Master's (no matter how the results there) did not matter once there was a second selection. Whats the point of having the second selection? If it matters, might as well just take the first five from Masters.

Fadzil was given the green light because he performed better in the Masters? This is just the excuse. Sumant appears to have no supporters in the MCF, whereas Fadzil have and this is the result. No doubt Fadzil will be upset with my comments. But I am just trying to point out injustices.

Sumant said...

I am not making an argument of who deserves what. I'm sure quite a number of people might agree Raymond Siew deserves the head-coach post for our team to the olympiad. All I am saying is that MCF has made a certain criteria and they should stick to it. It would be totally understandable if there was an unforeseen circumstance and MCF had to make an on-the-spot decision with the best interests of everyone in mind. But this was a pretty common situation where MCF chose to conveniently forget the rules they had set themselves before the tournament.

Anonymous said...

The point is these things should be decided by a proper way. for an example, in football Worldcup if 1 team dominate the whole of the game but the other team score 1 lucky goal than the team who score the goal get into the next stage. its not who "deserve" to win/go but who actually win. this is called sports. unless you want to choose your own player then can say who deserve who dun deserve loooo....

Sumant said...

Good point Anonymous.

Ilham said...

Almost a Catch 22 situation for MCF...

In an effort to be fair...solution maybe in replaying the musical chair...though surely it will left one player despair...but at least there is effort to repair...attempt to break this deadlock pair...ah! this whole episode of unwanted affair...fast escalating to be a mad funfair!

Anonymous said...

I think there are better players than both Fadzil and Sumant who should be representing Malaysia at the olympiad. IM Mas and Jianwen are definitely stronger than both of these players. Even Mark Siew is a comparatively better player and should deserve the chance to represent the nation at the olympiad.

Anonymous said...

The above comment makes you wonder whether chess does indeed make you smarter.

Anonymous said...

"makes you wonder whether chess does indeed make you smarter."

Haha!! That's assume Anon 6.54 pm know how to plays chess. He probably only knows how to teach his only student how to win by fixing games. It is blasphemy to even suggest a confirmed game fixer 'deserves the chance to represent the nation'. If Mark is really good enough, he already qualified through selection channel. Mark's father in his blog support LYW and Fadzil selections, the two players who got into Olympiad team thru back door. The father is famous for use back door for Mark to represent Perak so also surely support backdoor selections to Olympiad team.

Anonymous said...

to SUMANT..next time don't play CLASSICAL TIME CONTROL LIKE BLITZ TIME CONTROL OK???haha...you have 1 hour 30 min plus increment 30 sec...but you play like 1 min..now you know looo..

Anonymous said...

All this nonsense is because of "multiple selection tournaments" and unclear guidelines. That said, even in the US Championship, I read that the players were unaware of the tie breaking rules to determine the US Champion, eventually won by Kamsky.

My advice to Sumant is nobody owes you a place to the Olympiad. All officials are the same. When it comes to following the rules, they can always find a way out of their "promises". Some lie and some deny, but ultimately their candidate will prevail. Just play harder next time.

Anonymous said...

I re-read Sumant's blog saying that it was (mis)represented to all the players at the second selection to the effect that balance members of the team would be picked from that tournament itself. Present were members of MCF, who did not correct the (mis) information. If that is true, MCF is at fault because the players could not reasonably be expected to know the decision of MCF at the April meeting which had decided otherwise. Were the minutes of the MFC meeting made known to everyone involved? I think the Deputy President's argument was wrong. ? Sumant appears to have been short -changed and MCF must take the blame. Please be advised I am just offering my argument and I am not an interested party in any way. I am surprised RS did not make a statement in support of Sumant, whom he has all along been claimed to be his "student". No offence to Fadzil, but he got selected based on a dubious decision (4th in Masters, which was in fact "over-ruled" once the selection started and he willingly took part.

Anonymous said...

IMHO, MCF made the following errors in selecting the Olympiad team members:-

1. Although there were claimed "written guide-lines" for selection, were these same guidelines made known clearly to all who wanted to know and those who participated in the selections.

2. It appears there were gross miscommunications claimed by some interested parties, leading to their omissions from selection.

3. It appears that even the position of Tournament Director was not made known to the person holding the post, meaning the selection was ambiguous for a lack of that official.

4. MCF must extract a written promise from would-be qualifiers that they must be reasonably sure to honour a pledge to play if they are to participate in a selection tournament. and subsequently qualify and is selected.

5. Selection tournaments should not be "split-up". Those who cannot play in the ONLY selection event, must be willing to forego their place in the team. This will entice strong players to participate in the National Championship if they are interested to be included in the national team. The question of inadequate leave is secondary, unless that player is so strong that he can walk into the national team based on rating or recent tournament results elsewhere.

6. In the event appeals might be entertained under exceptional circumstances, all those who are reasonably involved must be notified, as in Sumant's case.

Jimmy Liew said...

There are those who will see the injustice. And there are some who will ignore it by sticking their heads in the sand. RS choose to ignore and praise Fadzil. The reason is his master us the one that orchestrated the backdoor. Don't expect RS to do otherwise coz he has to obey his master like a good dog.

Anonymous said...

Wah!! Jimmy, that's a new one. We all know RS is a dog but a stray one. (What do you call a stray dog in Malay?) Now you tell us he has a master??! and who orchestrated FN's selection? Now we already knows that Greg engineered YW's backdoor but someone else did it for FN, nothing to do with RS. Nobody wants RS as his dog.

Jimmy Liew said...

I dont think YW was given a backdoor like Fadzil. It only looked that way, if you know the background you will not say that. The 2nd selection really hurt YW's reputation, I bet if he knew what the fallout will be in advance, he will never take part. From my pov, Greg has less power in MCF than everyone gives him credit for.

On the other matter, it is quite clear who calls the shots in MCF now , cant give names so directly.

Anonymous said...

2nd selection was/is so clearly a backdoor specially arranged with YW in mind. Ismail took the morally correct option by declining his 'allotted' spot. YW happily went in the backdoor so he cannot really complain about any taint on his reputation. He still has the option to decline the offered spot in the Olympiad team if his reputation really matters to him. Team submission deadline is in 2 days' time. I am still hoping to see YW decline his place and Sumant get in instead which is the right thing and best for the future of Malaysian chess. YW has played Olympiad many times with nothing much to show for them. YW going one more time without properly qualifying cannot be good for Malaysian chess. Sumant is clearly a better option for the good of Malaysian chess.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous May 29, 2014 at 4:13 PM, think it is better to stick to the debate on who qualified on merit rather whether who benefits more by going to the Olympiad. That is not the discussion for this thread.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous may 29, 2014 at 4:13pm's point is YW did not qualify through the proper channels. He only had to play 3 games whereas the others had already played 5 grueling games against Malaysia's top players. And that's not taking into account the games fadzil played against IA. Furthermore,given the same amount of time, YW only had to prepare against 3 players while the others had to prepare against 6 players! In my opinion, playing against 3 tired players whilst having superior preparation hardly seems fair.

Anonymous said...

To Anon 4.37 pm. Sumant qualified on merit if you read the original selection criteria. It clearly states that no. 6 in Masters go if one of the top 5 decline selection. The 6 who played Masters was not advised of their rights in relation to 2nd selection. They could have played Masters without agreeing to 2nd selection, but were not competent to know this. MCF sure did a number on them. If Jimmy really knows the story of 2nd selection, then he would know 2nd selection was made specially for YW and Greg's role in the whole matter. Only YW asked to play on weekend. Mas Hafizul, the other 'inviteee' to 2nd selection made it clear from the outset that he was not interested and Greg knew that. Both IA and FN also did not ask for it. So it is surprising for Jimmy to say 2nd selection was not a backdoor specially YW. Of the 6 players, Sumant had qualified ahead of YW. Thus Sumant should be selected ahead of YW.

Anonymous said...

To Anon 6.25 pm, you definitely got it right. Moreover, YW had White against both FN and SS, a significant advantage at this level of play. For anyone to say YW qualified fairly is really pushing it. MCF made it such that a fresh YW got to play against tired out opponents (FN,SS YS) at 2nd selection. 2nd selection itself is already unfair to the 3 opponents but add to it the event was specially designed in response to YW's request for weekend play. Just imagine the huge psychological advantage YW had over his opponents even before the 2nd selection games started.

Anonymous said...

Yah, all the circumstances of 2nd selection were arranged to benefit YW. Definitely not fair to his opponents. If YW has any care at all for Malaysian chess, he should decline selection in favor of Sumant. That way, YW can still retain some self-respect within Malaysian chess circles. He can then start to regain his previous reputation so badly affected by his accepting the backdoor 2nd selection.

Anonymous said...

Applying principle of estoppel, MCF cannot unilaterally amend the original selection criteria published. Players had moved in relation to the criteria by playing National Closed and expecting to play only Masters to qualify for Olympiad team. Players were not properly informed of their rights to not agree to 2nd selection. (Just like a police arrest can be challenged if the police did not read out the rights to the arrestee, like 'you have the right to remain silent and anything you say may or can be used against you').
From legal perspective, it is very likely that 2nd selection is invalid and the YW selection also thus invalid. So FN and SS selections should be correct. Selecting YW is thus through a very big backdoor at the expense of Sumant.

Anonymous said...

so .... apparently, Jimmy doesn't know the whole story. Just blaming it all on FN seems the easiest thing to do.
Well ... it shows in the quality of your games too now Jimmy

Jimmy Liew said...

Just another rs stooge with zero brain matter. My games have nothing to do with this topic of discussion.

Anonymous said...

Kasparov : "How Life Imitates Chess"
chess -making moves based on shallow judgement; resigning in an equal albeit a bit unclear position
life - posting blogs based on hasty / judgemental assumptions

not similar meh ?

i would've thought somebody with your credence would be more careful when posting your blog, which deny it as much as you like, is nothing more than a personal attack on FN's inclusion to the Olympiad squad.

Jimmy Liew said...

Classic straw man attacks (divert attention away from the real issues at hand). Further comments like this will be deleted.

LZR said...

Hi, This is Zhuo ren here. Just going to list down a few assumptions here. 1. Before Malaysian masters 2014 started both Sumant and Yit San told me about the selection criteria and they indicated that since Tze Han might not be playing, 3rd place (2nd selection) would go.
2. To whichever anon who criticise tze Han for playing selection when he knew he might not be playing, here are some facts. All players (me included) who were invited to MM2014 received an email with attachments regarding the selection and some information. One of the things stated was that 2014 MM is also a selection for 2015 MM. As far as I know, this will be one of the ways of choosing the players for MM next yr. NC and rating list might be another way but this was not stated as far as I know. So this gave the players, in particular Tze han added incentive to play because he would then still be part of the national squad. This point was pointed out to me by Tze han before 2nd selection took place.
Back to the current topic, since both yitsan and Sumant told me about the criteria before MM started, I think it is reasonable to assume this (the criteria mentioned/conveyed to the players) is correct. After the selection ended, on the same day, I was told fadzil was upset and declined to play a playoff. Based on all this information at the time, it was clear to me that the 5 players chosen for Olympiad were confirmed and if Tze han didnt play, either Sumant or fadzil would take his place. If we take assumption 1 stating that both sumant and Yit San telling me that 3rd place would go to be true, then Sumant qualifies. Even if this assumption is false, certainly a playoff would be the fairest way to decide. There was No mention of a wildcard entry. Therefore, in view of all of this, I feel that this is abit of injustice on Sumant. He should at least be offered a playoff. As jimmy has pointed out, the 4th place in the first selection plays no part in the 2nd selection just as Sumant's higher national championship plays no part. This is my unbiased judgement. Personally, I think Sumant should qualify based on what was mentioned at the selection tournament.

Lim said...

Additionally, I would like to point out that I am not attacking anyone here. I am merely listing out what I was told and what I was told and using some common sense, coming to a reasonable conclusion. I think this is basically what jimmy is trying to say as well. Anyone who thinks logically about this can see that Sumant was hard done by.
Before 'anyone' accuses me of making up this stuff, unlike certain people, I would like to say that I can back up whatever I said by fb conversations and emails. But I won't be doing so for obvious reasons.

Hopefully this will clear things up to those who do not realise what the actual topic of discussion is here.

I do not think whoever in charge (be that MCF or a separate entity) will do anything about this. We are simply logically discussing things here and not attacking people. Whatever it is, we are all malaysians, we should still support the Malaysian team to Norway in August.

Lim said...

In case someone copies my name, I will be using my gmail account to comment if I do indeed comment.

Jimmy Liew said...

LZR, thanks a lot for your clear and to the point comments. Looks like both of us in complete agreement on all the points.

Anthony said...

huh... politics on Malaysia chess.

Anonymous said...

LZR, your point is taken. BUT NTH should have made it known to the selection committee that he was not available to join the team this year. His intention to achieve qualification for MM2015 is secondary as the tournament is principally for qualification to the National Team to Tromso. That is why it was important to extract a promise from the players that they would go to Tromso if they qualified. Maybe that was why all those who declined to play did so because they knew they could not go to Tromso, and that was that. Never mind MM2015.

Lim said...

Tze han did make it clear that he might not be able to play. Hence, the stated criteria that 3rd place going before 2nd selection. I do not know whether he told the committee before the first selection. I do know that he was still trying to apply for leave after he had qualified. This means that Tze Han was still hoping to be able to go to Olympiad before the selection tournament took place and that there was still a chance that he would obtain leave. If there was such a chance, of course he would take part. At the end of the day, we all want the opportunity to represent our country. You are right that the qualification for MM2015 is secondary but it is still a strong motivating factor as it is not easy for us to make time to go through the long selection process. Therefore, if we can play one tournament to confirm our place in future selection tourn, it is in our interest to do so.

I do not know whether all who declined to play chose to do so because they knew they could not take part. I think the main reason is becaus it clashed with other priorities. In my case, I had exams in uk and couldn't come back eventhough I wanted to. If we look at Yee Weng, he had work and agreed to play during weekends.

Lim said...

All that being said, I don't see how or why it is relevant for a player to inform the committee If he is unable to take part in Olympiad. The committee should make some guidelines or contingency plans for all possible scenarios or at least the obvious ones. One possibility is if after selection, a player cannot take part due to unforeseen circumstances. The committee could agree beforehand that the next player on the list be included or maybe they think a playoff is a more viable option, whatever. The point is the selection committee should take Into account all possible scenarios and at least have some sort of written guidelines as to what they would do next. So even if we take the extreme case where a player knows he cannot play, doesn't inform the committee and then takes part in the selection qualifies, and then says he can't play, the committee still has a guideline to go on as to who they shall pick to replace Him. So I don't see the relevance. And it should be noted that this is an extreme case and that Tze Han did inform the committee at least before 2nd selection. He didn't know for sure he couldn't play as he was still applying for leave.

The added incentive of being in MM2015 is just an extra and really isnt of mch importance to the general topic of discussion. I would jusy like to point out that it is no fault on Tze han's part that it was included in the criteria. This was done by the committee. If anyth, from their pov, it only serves the purpose to attract all the top players to take part and thus, helping us select the strongest possible team.

Jimmy Liew said...

LZR, you haven fallen for the "straw man" misdirection.

Anonymous said...

I think that all these "6-men round-robin a game each business" to pick a team is rubbish. So is the so-called short, short Malaysian Masters. More like drawing lots.

Anonymous said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Anonymous said...

But all this talk is of no use actually because ultimately the decision lies with MCF. You all can argue till the cows come home, it won't change a thing. Fadzil is going. Sumant isn't. Period.

Jimmy Liew said...

It won't change Anything. the point is to send a message to mcf. We are all watching and the chsess community is concerned with the illogical decisions mcf makes. The number views (nearing two thousands) and the large number of comments indicates this.

Anonymous said...

Hi Jimmy,
I think that since it is you facilitating "sending the message to mcf', weakens the message. The new MCF regime is trying their best but is bogged down by entrenched interests in the form of Gregory. Two years ago, all 5 players to Istanbul Olympiad were hand-picked by Greg without any selection. Your goodself, LZR, YLT and LYW were beneficiaries of the backdoors opened up by Greg's high-handedness. Given your past history of going to Olympiad through the backdoor, you complaining about Fadzil's selection carry very little weight. Not surprisingly, neither you nor LZR has spoken even a word against LYW's selection which should be the bigger issue compared to Fadzil’s selection. In fact you had even attempted to say 2nd selection was not for LYW before you were shot down. You do not appear to be a neutral and uninterested party.

Another matter which you did not question is how the heck YLT came to play in Masters. The selection guidelines only say that the highest FIDE rated player qualifies for Masters. It does not say anywhere that no.2 plays if no. 1 declines. YLT was actually no. 3 after Nicholas and Mas. It is the same reasoning that if anyone in NC top 3 is pre-qualified (as in FYS case), the third place does not go to no.4. Same reasoning MCF is now using to exclude Sumant. So Greg allowed YLT to play Master through another backdoor he created which again you are unsurprisingly silent since it concerns another member of the Istanbul team.

The inner circle knows that Greg has gone out of his way to ensure YLT and LYW is qualified. Greg’s powers have been curbed compared to 2 years ago. However he is still ‘convincing' with his play on words and manipulation. Yeap is not very knowledgeable although he talks a lot. As for Kamaruddin, the less said the better. Ismail is his normal quiet self. Only Tse Pin has the technical qualifications to stand up to Greg within the Selection Council and main committee. However the old guard has learnt to depend on Greg, so Greg's views still matters when it comes to player's strengths etc. Greg has been using these circumstances to maneuver the selection of YLT and LYW into the Olympiad team through the backdoor.

I believe it is time you stop harping on Fadzil's selection and support the selected team.

In case you did not notice, the Istanbul team was not very well supported by the lack of commentary on the Malaysian blogs before, during and after the event. General discussions among Malaysian chess players emphasized this view. The general Malaysian chess community did not consider the Istanbul team as a representative Malaysian team, just a bunch of fellows who came together through the abuse of power.

This time around, we have a more representative team which the Malaysian community can support. So please Jimmy, do not do anymore things to sabotage the Tromso team.

Anonymous said...

Yes you might be right Jimmy, the chess community is watching all these illogical decisions by MCF. But like you said, they are only watching but can't do anything. The chess community is powerless. The only people that can probably do something would be those associations affiliated with MCF. And for this case, it is CAS (Since Sumant was representing them in the National Closed). But Peter has already said, CAS's Secretary is in the selection committee and although he tried, the final decision was that Sumant was still denied a playoff game. So it seems that the cows have already come home.

Lim said...

This is a reply to anon 1st June 948pm. Judging from your comments, you have clearly bought into
Fgm’s lies and paranoia. Whether Jimmy has vested interested in the matter or not does not distract from the fact that Sumant has been wronged. All the points you mentioned have a flaw in them. I don’t know whether you are terribly misinformed or just trying to stir up trouble where there is none by making up stuff by twisting and turning and manipulating facts (something fgm is pretty adept at). This conversation is not really part of the topic here by I am going to amuse you and one by one point out the flaws.
1. All 5 of you are handpicked by Greg.
Wow, where did you get this wonderful piece of fiction? Surely you just read this from fgm and believed it to be true. I don’t see you backing this up with any supporting statements. Well, in the real world here we try and back up our claims with a certain something called facts. I am not well versed with the selection criteria for Olympiad having entered chess at the age of 12. So this is what I do know. Olympiad 2010, the players in the team were National champion (NC) 2012. In case you didn’t know, that was Tan Khai Boon from penang. The other players consisted of our top IMs who were in the top 10 of the rating list. I do not know about past Olympiads. But there wasn’t a lot of written criteria then so I will just use the one from 2010. I think it is safe to assume that NC is one criteria and rating list the other. In 2012, the NC was selected and declined his spot. This is a known fact. That person was Roshan Singh. I was the 2011 champion and was selected as well. I do not know what the criteria was but I guess I took his place. You could maybe say that why not take 2nd in National closed. To that I say, champion > 2nd. But this is beside the point. Since you seem to be claiming that you are an avid blog reader, im surprised you conveniently forgot to mention that when our names were published on the blogs in 2012, it was together with the criteria with which we were selected to the team. I do not recall what the criteria for the others were. I assure you the post is somewhere in the net. I cannot be bothered to find it but I assure you it is there. This is something you should be aware of in either case given the gravity of your claims. I do remember that li tian was president’s choice and this wasn’t surprising(at least to me)given his spectacular performances in GM tournaments. I will stop here now since the merits of the selection criteria isn’t the topic of our discussion.
2. Not surprisingly, neither you nor LZR discussed about LYW’s selection….
Not surprisingly INDEED. I thought it was blatantly obvious that people were trying to divert attention away from the real issue. And that this topic isn’t relevant and carries no weight at all. It should be obvious to anyone with half a brain. I guess I was wrong. If you were the organizer of a prestigious tournament, you would obviously want the defending champion to take part. If you say no, then there is no point arguing at all. Who won MM 2013? Hmmm…How many players from MM 2013 were in MM 2014 and how many of them qualified? The answer to the 2nd and 3rd question is 3. All 3 from mm 2013 qualified. And who won? Well, if it wasn’t already obvious, LYW. This may seem pointless. I am merely highlighting Yee weng’s strengths and credentials. I am not pretending to be the committee but this is a plausible reason of why they may want him to take part in the selection. This was just to give a plausible reason as to why the selection was done the way it was which was slightly unorthodox to say the least. Now, I want to show how LYW taking part in the 2nd selection is not advantageous to him and saying otherwise is just farcical. Lets just say for argument sake that the 2nd selection was really a ‘backdoor’ for LYW organized by Greg. And that 2 from the 4 players

Lim said...

will qualify. Lets further assume that each player has an equal chance of qualifying. So LYW has a 50% chance of qualifying. Not bad. What happens if he took part in the selection with the other 6 players. There would then be 7 players fighting for 5 spots. So 5 from 7. It doen’s take a genius to work out that LYW has more than 50% chance of qualifying here. Why put yourself at risk of missing out in the 2nd selection when one loss could potentially spell doom for your chances. Where as in the 5/7 tourn, you could lose and still qualify. It doesn’t make mathematical sense for yee weng to choose the ‘backdoor’ option. A lot of people are saying that he has more preparation time against tired opponents. If what I said doesn’t already negate that statement already, I want to say is preparation everything in chess? Is tiredness worse than lack of match practice? Playing strength doesn’t come into consideration?? No offence to the others in the 2nd selection, it is clear that LYW is the stronger player. Which brings me on to my next point, a stronger player would want more games to lessen the chance of a fluke result. So all in all playing a 4 player tournament puts him at a disadvantageous in every way except he has more time for work. It is really stupid to say that he was given an advantage by playing in the 4 player tournament. I am not saying he will qualify for sure in the 5/7 tournament but I wouldn’t bet on him doing otherwise.
3. You did not question how the heck YLT came to play in Masters…
Lol, I literally laughed when I read this. The angry tone, the ‘swear’ words. Where the heck did you get your information from?? How the heck is this even relevant?? I’m going to say a pointless thing here, YLT DESTROYED the opposition in MM2014. And that’s an understatement. Now to the point, as you pointed out, top 3 from NC qualify and not 4th etc. Yeah, you are right, this was specifically mentioned in the selection criteria in the emails we received. It was also mentioned specifically that the eligible player for FIDE list will be selected and as you pointed out YLT was 3rd. There is no applying the same reasoning bullshit. I don’t think I need to explain what eligible player means. It doesn’t mean ends after 1st. Like I said, where the heck did you get your information from and even if you made a mistake, how is this a bigger wrong than to what they did to sumant?
4. General comments.
I don’t know about us not getting support from the chess community and not getting talked about by blogs. I remember the team being talked about by hairulov, ilham (thanks ilham, Awesome post!!), even foreign blogs. Of course our biggest fan was fgm! Every other post was about us, sabotaging us, complaining about our lack of fighting spirit, and just saying for sure we will not do well. We got 64th, higher than our seed (equal best ever result), 2 2500 performances, few upsets, not even going to mention individual achievements. But yeah, fgm was right, we didn’t do very well. That’s his opinion. I guess you are entitled to your opinion as well. But how is jimmy sabotaging the team when what fgm did isn’t??
We have just presented the facts. There was a stated criteria during the tournament. The committee went back on it. And now fadzil is in the team. We are not harping about fadzil, jimmy is just standing up for sumant if anything. And we have random anons who know no better than to follow other people’s thinking and making wild accusations without proper facts. Next time, don’t believe everything everyone says. And please don’t take one thing from what I said and attack me with it. That would just be classic fgm. And you wouldn’t really be countering my points.

Anonymous said...

Dear Lim, as you rightly said, you do not know much. So I shall not respond to your childish points.

Jimmy Liew said...

Anon @8:22 AM, you flee in the face of logic and reason. FGM too will just behave the same way. I guess you are reading too much of the poison blogger, crippled your ability to think aka brainwashed.

The other players in the 2012 were chosen based on FIDE rating and active in playing (not rapids). These were the selection criteria which the poison blogger choose to ignore and tried to brainwash everybody that there were no selection criteria.

Anonymous said...

If the selection committee cannot come up with a proper selection, it is MCF's fault. If a player who qualifies but cannot go, then it is the player's fault. When it comes to the final analysis, LZR, while it may sound logical for a player to try to qualify for MM2015 by playing in an Olympic selection2014, it seems a short-coming if the player did not inform the selectors of his intentions. The selectors might have granted him exemption in the light of his situation.

When it comes to players who cannot fit in the time for playing in selection, how then they can find the 2-3 weeks to play in the Olympiad? Actually, to do well in an Olympiad, players rightfully have to get together to train and know the other team members. This, I think is even more demanding than finding the time to play a selection. It is necessary to have "centralised" training, say, by playing against various "teams" from Malaysia. I dare say if the current team plays against a team of Nicholas, Mas, Mok, Ronny, Jimmy, Jonathan, Peter, etc. it will be crushed completely. Yet the latter team is made up of rather active players not going to the Olympiad.

Lim said...

Anon 822am. I dont know which is more childish, making up stuff and then crying foul when it's been points out or me, making valid arguments. To be honest, I already predicted a response such as this. Look at the comment: And please don't take ONE thing I sai and attack me with it. Hmm, so the one thing here is me saying I do not know much. Well, I know enough to point out your flaws. Childish or not, my points still have substance and are valid unlike yours. So typical of a child, talk so much and then when cannot talk anymore, resort to name calling.

Lim said...

Anon 1247pm. I have already commented and given my points on the NTH matter in one of the comments above. At the risk of potentially repeating myself, it does not constitute a wrongful act if a player does not inform the committee of their intention. Maybe from an ethical standpoint, it does. I have also already pointed out that the MM2015 thing is just an extra thing, and it isn't the main point. Besides, NTH did inform the committee. You can read the points in more detail in the previous comment. If you still don't understand, try thinking about this, let's say a player has inform the committee he cannot play in Olympiad, does that mean he cannot play selection?? A few yrs back, if I'm not mistaken, Gata Kamsky played in the US championship but made it clear he wasn't available for some team event. Yet he still played. Point is it doesn't matter whether NTH informs or not. He is under no obligation to do so. Even if he informs, what is the committee supposed to do?? Think about this for awhile. What if a player says he cannot take part. What does the committee do? You may say get rid of the player from selection. Then, What if ALL the players say they cannot play? What then? Get rid of them too?? Then where do you get new players to replace those players? What criteria do you use? Who comes up with those criteria? The answer to that lies in my questions: what happens if a player informs the committee he cannot play. The committee has to come up with some procedure/criteria/guideline of dealing with this scenario. This is independent of whether a player decides he cannot play, whether to inform or not. In a nutshell, it makes no difference to the committee if the player informs them or not. The player could jump into a rocket and fly to mars for all they know. It doesn't affect the selection process. And it damn well isn't wrong.

As for your point about centralised training. I'm pretty sure you aren't the only one who thinks this way. But this isn't relevant to our discussion. Neither is who makes a better team. All these are too subjective. It's like comparing Carlsen with Kasparov. Who is better? Both sides have their own arguments.

Anonymous said...

Again, there is no point crying wolf on all this. If Malaysian chess wants better accountability and transparency, then that means you need better people in MCF but if most of the chess community here are just arm chair commentators and not willing to go that extra mile or sacrifice some of their own precious time to take up positions (at the risk of being laid out to dry), so then we will have to accept that this is the best that it gets. Malaysian chess doesn't deserve better at this moment. LZR, you have been talking a lot. Graduate, come back, get a job, get married, get some kids, and then see if you still have time and can start doing some good for Malaysian chess. Talk is cheap.

Anonymous said...

LZR, I think you are confused. Having put in so many words you seem to have forgotten what you said. You said you were not sure whether NTH informed the committee (before MM2014) he was not going to the Olympiad but did so only before the 2nd selection, after he has qualified. This was made known to certain other potential qualifiers who then "assumed" that a 3rd placing was good enough to qualify. Was this confirmed my MCF? Obviously, the Chairman of the selection committee did not agree in his reply to Sumant.

You mentioned that Kamsky also did not play in certain "team tournament" after he played the US Championship. Was he ethically bound to play in team tournaments as a condition to try for US Champion? He did inform beforehand, didn't he? Do you know the criteria for selection to the US team? Did he play in the Olympiad? ANYWAY, can we hold Kamsky's action as justifying your point of view. He seemed to have done the right thing, by giving prior notice. He was ONLY playing for the National Championship of USA. NTH was playing in so-called MM2014 which was principally to select players for Tromso.

If you still think it was OK to qualify and not play, think of the ones who lost to NTH. Perhaps his results could be annulled to select the qualifiers. As a person matures he ought to think about the consequences of his actions on others. I did not want to say so, but the way you put it, it appears to me NTH could be there to spoil the chances of certain players and give advantage to others of his "gang". In this scenario, I think Fadzil might have been put to a disadvantage. Just a point to ponder. I stress I am not related to FGM.

Anonymous said...

Lim, you write very much like RS. A lot of words with very little substance, good only to mislead the uninformed. RS must have coached you in the past.

Lim said...

Talk is cheap when the talk requires action. It is good advice but is really common advice. So far, all I did was justify what was wrong with Sumant's exclusion. The others I am just trying to defend my friends and it had nothing to do with having a better mcf. Whatever else you said, you are right. But I do not intend get involved in Malaysian chess politics. I am a player at heart. I'm just airing my views and only my first comment is actually about mcf's selection process. Last time I checked, it's a free country. Your other points, you are right.

Anon 846.
I give background information, facts, underlying Assumptions which support a reasonable conclusion in all my points. That isnt what you call very little substance. That Would be your comment. Please brush up on ur vocabulary before coming here and actually giving constructive criticism. You could learn from anon 450pm. Conclusions supported with logical Statements.

Lim said...

Anon 450.
I am not confused. I am using this example ( in hindsight, it was a bad example ) to illustrate my point, The point I made in an earlier comment which some ppl have not understood.

You clearly care about this and I can understand ur position. The point is it is not wrong to not inform the committee. Yeah, you are right this affects results (Eg:Tze Han bt Fadzil). Some people such as urself may not like it and I can emphatise with that. But it doesn't change the fact that technically, it DOES NOT matter. What is the committee supposed to do if they know this will happen? Ban said player? This seems the only viable option of dealing/negating said effects and one that maybe you are suggesting(maybe not). But has this ever happened? My 'bad' example shows this. Kamsky told them. He played. Did he affect the results? Of course he did. Was it unfair? I don't know. Maybe. Did it matter? Not in any technical way. I know this was the US championship (hence bad example). But this applies to any tournament. Say national closed. Too 3 qualify for selection. 4th place goes home no matter what. What if 3rd place can't play. Same situation. It affects 4th place (fadzil) result. So what? You can't take the player out of the tourn. You can sympathise with fadzil. I do too, From Experience. I know how It feels like. But it doesnt change the fact that it does not matter. I have been trying to point this point out every time I commented on Tze Han. This is my 3rd time and ppl still don't understand. Hence, the long reply trying to explain. Let me emphasise my one main point again. The committee DOES NOT give a rat's ass whether a player can or cannot play Olympiad. If player A cant play, we just take player B according to whatever criteria they settled on beforehand. When I say player A cannot play, it could be because he couldn't get leave or sth came up. Maybe he died. It does not matter. It's the same thing to them. Say 'fingers crossed' a player who could play suddenly died. You gonna blame him for affecting results? You gonna say he should have told the committee he was going to die? Even if they knew this hypothetical situation was going to happen, are they supposed to ask him not to play? Well if according to their protocol/criteria yes, then yes but more likely they will choose another player to replace him according to whatever criteria they set out. If after all this, you (everyone) still dont get this point then too bad. I understand your position but this if true negates everything you all are saying. Not that this is relevant or anyth but Tze han was still applying for leave after 2nd selection. I mentioned this previously. Nobody seemed to noticed. Im sorry this sounds really harsh. I know how it sounds like and it doesn't make for very nice hearing. But it's the truth. Maybe I am wrong to think that it's not wrong from a technical viewpoint to not inform the committee. If I was in this situation, of coz I will inform them not because It would be wrong to do otherwise but because it is the 'right' thing to do. If you still think it is wrong, I guess we can agree to disagree unless you are able to show me that it's written in some law that this is not the case, then I will take back my claim. If you or anyone else reads my previous comments on this matter, what's whatever I say is aiming to support the conclusion that it does not matter to the committee whatever a player does.

Anonymous said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Anonymous said...

LZR no point arguing further. Some see a glass half full while others half empty. The second selection was a blunder and so whatever resulted out of it cannot be fair anymore, whichever way you see it.

Anonymous said...

LZR, say you are a footballer who has a good chance of undergoing surgery to correct some condition. You know, others don't but your past play has interested the selectors for an important tournament like the World Cup. Do you keep quiet about your condition or do you tell the selectors you might not be available for selection and let them decide? Of course you can keep on playing and go for the World Cup one way or the other, but then you have a good conscience now that despite your confession you were selected nevertheless. On the other hand, if you keep quiet for selfish reasons and breakdown at the World Cup you have compromised your team and country as well. You have deprived another player of a chance of a life-time, and feel nothing was wrong? The more you put it, the more I think the chairman of the committee was right in rejecting the assumption that 3rd place in the 2nd selection would go. This is not to say 4th place in MM2014 qualified, BUT the selectors had reserved the right to nominate a player to replace NTH, under the circumstances. Back-door? But this was all the doing of a certain participant. I do not care who go and who don't, but a certain unwritten code of conduct should have been observed as we are talking of National Players who are expected to act maturely and fairly. If they are seen to gang up and possibly contribute to the elimination of a participant, that is sad.

Anonymous said...

LZR should be in the olympiad. Along with Jimmy, Li tian, Peter, Mark siew and raymond siew as coach. Then we'll have fireworks.

Anonymous said...

Raymond Siew, definitely not. Mark Siew? What has he ever achieved? Under 12 Perak Champion? That was some 10 years ago. Only his father has delusions.

Lim said...

I think that regardless of how one feels about the moral aspect of this or their mental state(clear conscious), it is not wrong. You feel otherwise. We are just going around in circles. So I guess we can agree to disagree here. On your other points, either i have already talked about them in which case, we can agree to disagree or I am unable to make any informed comments. For example, I do not know whether the committee reserved the right to choose a player. I guess it's reasonable to assume this. I do not know everything about their criteria so I cannot with confidence comment much on this. Guess we end the argument here. In the end, we are not really talking about Tze han here.

Anonymous said...

Too many Anons....I would like to see all your real names... not just throw fire and hide kahkahkah...like me COWARDDD

Anonymous said...

2 ways to look at it. By posting anonymously. he may be a coward like you said. All is well and good if there are no vengeful people around to hound you till the end of your days. GOOD EXAMPLE was EdFong who posted using his own name. His relatively few postings so flamed Raymond Siew that nowadays, whenever he chose to shoot Jimmy LIew and Peter Long, EdFong has been included as well in his list of eternal enemies.

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